--- Log opened 2007-10-25T13:32:28Z Thu Oct 25
2007-10-25T13:32:28Z -!- ericP [ericP@128.30.52.30] has joined #RdfRDB
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2007-10-25T13:32:44Z <ericP> oh yeah, who's the op
2007-10-25T13:32:53Z <LeeF> i've been here for like HOURS
2007-10-25T13:32:58Z <ericP> i bet
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2007-10-25T13:36:24Z <shellac> hey, an interloper
2007-10-25T13:40:13Z <ericP> oi
2007-10-25T13:40:42Z <ericP> LeeF, shellac, i need to put some slides together for a recently vacated 16:00 slot
2007-10-25T13:41:03Z <shellac> good luck?
2007-10-25T13:41:07Z <ericP> i want to compare/constrast different mapping languages
2007-10-25T13:41:10Z <ericP> thanks
2007-10-25T13:41:15Z <shellac> ah, I see
2007-10-25T13:41:29Z <ericP> so, good buddy...
2007-10-25T13:41:42Z <ericP> do you have expertise to offer?
2007-10-25T13:41:55Z <shellac> I think andy may have a slide on squirrels, which is super-simple
2007-10-25T13:41:59Z  * ericP will assemle a strawman
2007-10-25T13:42:01Z <shellac> squirrel's
2007-10-25T13:42:30Z <shellac> erm, you need d2rq example, and (I think most complex) viruoso
2007-10-25T13:42:36Z <shellac> virtuoso
2007-10-25T13:42:44Z  * shellac hunts links
2007-10-25T13:44:10Z <shellac> virtuoso's is like rdb views
2007-10-25T13:45:01Z <LeeF> ericP- why not a panel on mapping?
2007-10-25T13:45:12Z <LeeF> everyone's here
2007-10-25T13:45:20Z <LeeF> could pick a bunch of categories
2007-10-25T13:45:27Z <LeeF> and discuss w/ the panel
2007-10-25T13:46:01Z <ericP> panel, pretty much the info i wanted to get across
2007-10-25T13:46:17Z <LeeF> hmm?
2007-10-25T13:46:41Z <ericP> i wanted to say "given this relational schema, here's how you can set up your mapper to query it with that query"
2007-10-25T13:47:07Z  * LeeF wonders why there's a pink line in the clouds
2007-10-25T13:47:29Z <LeeF> i worry that that level of detail might not come across well in a verbal setting?
2007-10-25T13:47:31Z <ericP> so basically, each tech can present, but we have parallels between the presentations
2007-10-25T13:47:55Z <ericP> let's see if i can convince you or you me during teh coffee break
2007-10-25T13:48:08Z <LeeF> OK
2007-10-25T13:48:58Z <ericP> note, you are already at a disadvantage as we have no chairs
2007-10-25T13:49:46Z <LeeF> I AM A CHAIR
2007-10-25T13:50:59Z <shellac> ...step away from the capslock...
2007-10-25T13:56:46Z <ericP> COTS?
2007-10-25T13:57:14Z <shellac> COTS      Commercial Off-The-Shelf?
2007-10-25T13:57:21Z <ericP> sounds good
2007-10-25T13:58:38Z <shellac> http://www.openacademy.mindef.gov.sg/openacademy/ITseminar/cots.htm
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2007-10-25T14:38:26Z  * timbl looks around
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2007-10-25T15:06:56Z <LeeF> ericP, http://www.w3.org/2007/03/RdfRDB/talks/BoeingW3CPresentation.ppt is 403 Forbidden
2007-10-25T15:08:33Z <ericP> should be fixed now
2007-10-25T15:08:34Z <ericP> tx
2007-10-25T15:10:05Z <LeeF> thx
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2007-10-25T15:13:45Z <cygri> ericP: you're planning a comparison of mapping approaches over lunch?
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2007-10-25T15:32:43Z <ericP> cygri, i'd like to start on it
2007-10-25T15:33:07Z <ericP> i'd like to do more on it during a break-out tomorrow at 9.30
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2007-10-25T15:35:33Z <cygri> ok ... just let me know if you need any input from me
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2007-10-25T15:57:03Z <ericP> cygri, yes please. let's scratch on napkins during lunch
2007-10-25T15:57:28Z <ericP> (i, for instance, have a Dell D820 napkin running Debian Sid)
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2007-10-25T16:19:22Z <ericP> could someone sitting next to chrisB or cygri tell them that i have no slides for them?
2007-10-25T16:23:06Z <UldisB> ericP: done. told chrisB.
2007-10-25T16:24:27Z <ericP> tx kindly
2007-10-25T16:24:38Z <ericP> he's up first thing after lunch
2007-10-25T16:25:05Z -!- cygri [cygri@205.181.102.100] has joined #rdfrdb
2007-10-25T16:25:40Z <ericP> cygri, do you have your slides (you're first presenter after lunch)
2007-10-25T16:28:29Z <cygri> ericP: chrisB does the presentation
2007-10-25T16:28:44Z <cygri> think he has sent you the slides per email a few minutes ago
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2007-10-25T16:37:46Z <ericP> ahh i think he is known as "[Moderator Action]"
2007-10-25T16:38:11Z <ericP> (just that the slides got blocked from going to the list)
2007-10-25T16:38:25Z <ericP> putting them in talks/ space now...
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2007-10-25T17:46:23Z <ericP> welcome Katsu
2007-10-25T17:50:37Z <Katsu> Hi, ericP. Thank you for chairing. I've been on this channel except during lunch.
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2007-10-25T18:04:52Z <ericP> oh good. glad the chairing is working
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2007-10-25T18:45:51Z <ericP> cygri, do you have a MySQL5 server?
2007-10-25T18:46:09Z <ericP> i can give you AlzGene in one of their DB formats
2007-10-25T18:46:16Z <cygri> yes, works for me
2007-10-25T18:46:17Z <ericP> or i can do a mysqldump
2007-10-25T18:46:23Z <ericP> cool. binary first...
2007-10-25T18:48:44Z <ericP> cygri, can you ping 10.130.168.139 ?
2007-10-25T18:48:54Z <ericP> (so you can pick it up off the web)
2007-10-25T18:49:00Z <ericP> ((my web))
2007-10-25T18:49:18Z <cygri> yes
2007-10-25T18:50:35Z <ericP> ok, hacking apache conf
2007-10-25T18:53:18Z <ericP> hmm, better if i zip it so you don't have to wget a zillion files...
2007-10-25T18:56:31Z <ericP> cygri, does http://10.130.168.139/AlzGene.tzf work for you?
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2007-10-25T18:57:06Z <cygri> trying ...
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2007-10-25T19:06:55Z <cygri> ericP, mysql doesn't like the files, seems to be an issue with capitalization of the table names
2007-10-25T19:09:25Z <ericP> fussy bastard
2007-10-25T19:09:36Z <ericP> would a mysqldump help it along?
2007-10-25T19:10:00Z <ericP> i guess that means there aren't many names to hit in the dump
2007-10-25T19:11:26Z <ericP> cygri, try http://10.130.168.139/AlzGene.sql
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2007-10-25T19:18:17Z <ericP> agenda + view update
2007-10-25T19:18:17Z  * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
2007-10-25T19:19:01Z <ericP> agenda + ontology per database
2007-10-25T19:19:01Z  * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
2007-10-25T19:19:33Z <ericP> ivan, timbl, anyowe else, could you please add topics for the discussion at 16.00 ?
2007-10-25T19:19:53Z -!- deanallemang [dallemang@205.181.102.100] has joined #rdfrdb
2007-10-25T19:20:31Z <deanallemang> Paper by Suzette Stoutenberg and her team at Mitre where she uses an Ontology Architecture to have one ontology per database, but then a mediating ontology to merge them together
2007-10-25T19:20:34Z <deanallemang> http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/tech_papers_04/04_1174/
2007-10-25T19:20:35Z <ivan> agenda+ close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping?
2007-10-25T19:20:35Z  * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
2007-10-25T19:21:04Z  * ivan thanks Dean
2007-10-25T19:22:07Z <timbl> Agenda+  Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data?
2007-10-25T19:22:07Z  * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
2007-10-25T19:24:08Z <AshokMalhotra> Agenda+ Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF?
2007-10-25T19:24:08Z  * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
2007-10-25T19:24:25Z <AshokMalhotra> c/stores/stored/
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2007-10-25T19:26:44Z <deanallemang> Ashok: I don't think so - I think everyone can agree that circumstances will prevent us from storing data in some particular way, so we need to be flexible.  Of course, once I say "everyone", I am sure there will be someone who doesn't
2007-10-25T19:27:18Z <AshokMalhotra> Right!  I just wanted this on the table.
2007-10-25T19:28:07Z <AndyS> How much of OWL are people using in this problem space?
2007-10-25T19:28:58Z <deanallemang> Andy: Have a look at Suzette's paper - she uses intersections/unions, subclass/equivalentclass/subproperty, inverse, and I think hasValue
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2007-10-25T19:30:04Z <AndyS> Thx: is that for the mapping between ontologies or modeling the DBs?
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2007-10-25T19:32:57Z <deanallemang> Mapping - modeling of the ontologies is done pretty much the way the last speaker said - domain/range and owl:Class
2007-10-25T19:34:06Z <ericP> agenda?
2007-10-25T19:34:06Z  * Zakim sees 5 items remaining on the agenda:
2007-10-25T19:34:08Z  * Zakim 1. view update [from ericP]
2007-10-25T19:34:10Z  * Zakim 2. ontology per database [from ericP]
2007-10-25T19:34:11Z  * Zakim 3. close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping? [from ivan]
2007-10-25T19:34:13Z  * Zakim 4. Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data? [from timbl]
2007-10-25T19:34:15Z  * Zakim 5. Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF? [from AshokMalhotra]
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2007-10-25T19:34:29Z <AndyS_> So there is scope to execute efficiently.  Cool.
2007-10-25T19:35:50Z <ericP> cygri, any luck with http://10.130.168.139/AlzGene.sql ?
2007-10-25T19:36:01Z <eneumann> has the topic of locating reverse references been addressed yet?
2007-10-25T19:36:29Z <ericP> i don't believe so. could you explain/motivate it some?
2007-10-25T19:37:30Z <cygri> ericP: yes, i'm setting up a D2R Server for the DB ... can you send me the schema diagram too so i can see all the joins?
2007-10-25T19:37:42Z <eneumann> It goes something like this: "I would like to know everything linked to or said about this RDB entity, especially if it is outside its own table"?
2007-10-25T19:37:55Z <ericP> cygri, http://ashby.csail.mit.edu/web/Outlook.jpg
2007-10-25T19:38:02Z <ericP> boucning you a mail now...
2007-10-25T19:38:32Z <ericP> email addr?
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2007-10-25T19:39:25Z <kidehen> ericP: s3.amazonaws.com/kingsley/Browser_based_Visual_SQL_to_RDF_Mapping_Tool.ppt re. RDF Visual Mapping presentation
2007-10-25T19:39:40Z <kidehen> ericP: as in http://s3.amazonaws.com/kingsley/Browser_based_Visual_SQL_to_RDF_Mapping_Tool.ppt
2007-10-25T19:40:23Z <ericP> kidehen, this replaces the current link to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/RdfRDB/papers/erling.html ?
2007-10-25T19:40:40Z <ericP> (link from http://www.w3.org/2007/03/RdfRDB/program )
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2007-10-25T19:45:32Z <ericP> eneumann, i'm trying to understand when i'd want reverse references, and how i'd implement it
2007-10-25T19:46:42Z <ericP> that is, beyond what [[SELECT ?referrer WHERE { ?referrer references <somePage> }]]
2007-10-25T19:46:51Z <ericP> ... answers
2007-10-25T19:47:34Z <AndyS_> even that's hard when <somepage> can be in any DB
2007-10-25T19:47:57Z <eneumann> many orgs want to know all annotations and links made about things that sit inside RDBs, but these links (triples) are highly distributed. There are a couple of ways to implement this, but most borrow strategies from Google's 'barrels'
2007-10-25T19:47:59Z <ericP> yeah, hence the "how i'd implement it"
2007-10-25T19:48:08Z <AndyS_> and references is DB spanning
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2007-10-25T19:49:57Z <cygri> ericP: work in progress here: http://10.130.168.109/
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2007-10-25T19:59:10Z <ericP> cygri, cooool
2007-10-25T20:02:32Z <ericP> cygri, i bounced you a sample query. i might have abbreviated it correctly here:
2007-10-25T20:02:33Z <ericP> [[
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>   PREFIX ag: <http://localhost:8890/test/schemas/AlzGene#>
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>   SELECT ?paName ?locus ?ethn ?pubmed ?resl FROM <.example> WHERE {
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>     ?gene ag:geneAlias "CTSD" ; ag:locus ?locus .
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>     ?prot ag:geneRecord ?gene ; ag:proteinAlias ?paName .
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>     ?ethd ag:eth2geneRecord ?gene ; ag:studyRecord ?stud ; ag:ethnicity ?ethn ; ag:result ?resl .
2007-10-25T20:02:34Z <ericP>     ?stud ag:pubmed ?pubmed ; ag:studyName ?stname }
2007-10-25T20:02:36Z <ericP> ]]
2007-10-25T20:08:44Z <ericP> http://10.130.168.109/sparql?query=PREFIX%20ag%3A%20%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Flocalhost%3A8890%2Ftest%2Fschemas%2FAlzGene%23%3E%0ASELECT%20%3FpaName%20%3Flocus%20%3Fethn%20%3Fpubmed%20%3Fresl%20WHERE%20%7B%0A%20%20%3Fgene%20ag%3AgeneAlias%20%22CTSD%22%20%3\
B%20ag%3Alocus%20%3Flocus%20.%0A%20%20%3Fprot%20ag%3AgeneRecord%20%3Fgene%20%3B%20ag%3AproteinAlias%20%3FpaName%20.%0A%20%20%3Fethd%20ag%3Aeth2geneRecord%20%3Fgene%20%3B%20ag%3AstudyRecord%20%3Fstud%20%3B%20ag%3Aethnicity%20%3Fethn%20%3B%20ag%3Aresult%20%3Fresl%20.%0A%20%20%\
3Fstud%20ag%3Apubmed%20%3Fpubmed%20%3B%20ag%3AstudyName%20%3Fstname%20%7D
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2007-10-25T20:09:23Z <ericP> agenda?
2007-10-25T20:09:23Z  * Zakim sees 5 items remaining on the agenda:
2007-10-25T20:09:24Z  * Zakim 1. view update [from ericP]
2007-10-25T20:09:25Z  * Zakim 2. ontology per database [from ericP]
2007-10-25T20:09:26Z  * Zakim 3. close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping? [from ivan]
2007-10-25T20:09:29Z  * Zakim 4. Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data? [from timbl]
2007-10-25T20:09:31Z  * Zakim 5. Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF? [from AshokMalhotra]
2007-10-25T20:10:17Z <ericP> q+ centralized vs. distributed
2007-10-25T20:10:17Z  * Zakim sees centralized, vs., distributed on the speaker queue
2007-10-25T20:10:30Z <ivan> agenda+ benchmarks
2007-10-25T20:10:30Z  * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
2007-10-25T20:10:33Z <ericP> agenda+ centralized vs. distributed
2007-10-25T20:10:33Z  * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
2007-10-25T20:10:52Z <ivan> agenda?
2007-10-25T20:10:52Z  * Zakim sees 7 items remaining on the agenda:
2007-10-25T20:10:54Z  * Zakim 1. view update [from ericP]
2007-10-25T20:10:55Z  * Zakim 2. ontology per database [from ericP]
2007-10-25T20:10:55Z -!- AndyS [AndyS_@192.6.19.190] has joined #rdfrdb
2007-10-25T20:10:56Z  * Zakim 3. close world/open world differences in a schema/owl mapping? [from ivan]
2007-10-25T20:10:58Z  * Zakim 4. Will decentralized SPARQL systems scale, or will we ned one huge centralized SPARQL system for public data? [from timbl]
2007-10-25T20:11:02Z  * Zakim 5. Is there a split beteen folks who want to work on data stores as relational and data stored as RDF? [from AshokMalhotra]
2007-10-25T20:11:05Z  * Zakim 6. benchmarks [from ivan]
2007-10-25T20:11:06Z  * Zakim 7. centralized vs. distributed [from ericP]
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2007-10-25T20:13:38Z <AndyS> So that use case was very reasonable. No large vendors are targetting it - maybe it is because it is not a single problem space when you push into the detail.
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2007-10-25T20:22:08Z <deanallemang> Topic Proposal:  Propagating updates from RDF views back to underlying datasources
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2007-10-25T20:25:33Z <AndyS> If you missed the URL: http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/tech_papers_04/04_1174/
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2007-10-25T20:29:54Z <AndyS> Expections of RDF Schema / OWL for constraints
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2007-10-25T20:30:07Z <ericP> tx AndyS
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2007-10-25T20:32:34Z <AndyS> EricNeumann: Close world : exploit to produce efficient solutions
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2007-10-25T20:34:39Z <AndyS> Orri: Whole semantic web - very large - federated query requires source description and discovery - meta infor for query plans
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2007-10-25T20:38:47Z <AndyS> Kingsley: what if the big players expose linked data?  Suggest that the time is coming when that will happen.
2007-10-25T20:39:18Z  * AndyS hopes people will correct as needed
2007-10-25T20:39:59Z <AndyS> Ashok: will it change to RDF?
2007-10-25T20:40:22Z <AndyS> Michael: specialized store arise to meet these needs
2007-10-25T20:42:17Z  * timbl updates http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/Projects.rdf#n27
2007-10-25T20:42:19Z <AndyS> ... Existing players suggest using current databases.  Engines become (have become) very complex.
2007-10-25T20:42:42Z <AndyS> Ivan: == Benchmarks
2007-10-25T20:42:52Z <AndyS> ... community work in some form?
2007-10-25T20:43:46Z <AndyS> ... XG tomorrow.
2007-10-25T20:45:40Z <AndyS> THALIA: http://esw.w3.org/topic/TaskForces/CommunityProjects/LinkingOpenData/THALIATestbed
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2007-10-25T20:50:18Z  * LeeF apologized for having to run out on what i'm sure is a very interesting discussion :(
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2007-10-25T20:50:18Z  * LeeF apologized for having to run out on what i'm sure is a very interesting discussion :(

Break-out Topics

Future Work

* benchmarks

* mapping

* federation

RdfRDB/2007-10-25 (last edited 2007-10-26 15:31:40 by EricPrudhommeaux)